Ironbull's blog

Sin lugar a dudas la práctica contribuye a desarrollar una mejor técnica y a mejorar la competencia para luchar

Claro. Técnicas, formas, aptitudes físicas. ¿Pero piensas que la práctica aumente la capaz de aventajar o que esa sea algo innato?

Contribuye en una buena medida. Da elementos, confianza etc... pero lo innato es lo principal acompañado de un gusto

I am not sure if it would be considered covered by 1 & 2 but I think genetics factors into everything, as well as intelligence. As beneficial as respect is in traditional training grounds, and beneficial to life, I don't think it's a necessity. There are plenty of disrespectful people who can fight.

As for "it"... it's probably a combination of all those things with a little natural instinct, but I think anything can be grown for some people, while others will find it near impossible to expand much past a certain point. Depends on the person.

Reminds me once of a podcast I head about nature vs nurture. The geneticist being interviewed said something like pointing to which aspects are influenced by nature or nurture (and to what degree), is like pointing to a cake and saying, now show me the eggs. Essentially once it is all mixed up, it's no longer possible to point out the individual ingredients. They have become a whole.

Age will enter in as well. Some like to act as if we should pretend it plays no factor, but no matter how good someone is in their prime, a few decades later some of those aspects will start to fade and eventually fail. It's more a a journey with highs and lows than a set, permanent, destination.

Thanks KO, these are really good points.

By respect, I really meant respect for the situation. I agree that you can get into the ring and pair up with an asshole lol (makes hitting him easier).

I like the egg analogy. I also totally agree about age, but qualified by the impact that a healthy life can have on that.

Good blog post. I believe something like "mindset" is crucial. By that I mean the ability to be in the right frame of mind or to adopt the right frame of mind for a fight or match. This may be related to training (physical training often –though not always – goes hand in hand with being able to cultivate the right mindset, which includes when not to fight and how to approach a fight). it might also be unrelated to training; for example, someone untrained might be faced with a fight situation and rises to the moment (although I would argue that something else in their background subconsciously prepared them for the moment... perhaps training in a non-fight activity carried over). I would actually argue that "mindfulness" (one's awareness of one's self and one's surroundings) is equally (if not more) important than physical training. I have seen someone with poor mindfulness (for instance, overconfidence or distraction or lack of self-discipline) lose to someone with fewer physical gifts or less training. I was training in martial arts up till a year ago (when I moved .. lol and I wasn't that good), but our teacher always talked about mindfulness (which we practiced with breathing exercises). I think this mental aspect is different from the "it"/musicality you mentioned. Anyway, thanks for a thoughtful post.

Thanks for your comments Bam.

I wonder if the guys in your class who started strong were still the strong ones after a fee years of training, at least relative to the others.

I can say that the "worst" students (who often dropped out early) were the ones who started overconfident, especially if they had some natural skills. Sometimes they would take one class and say, 'This is easy," not realizing (a) you should do the drills at your own level of intensity, (b) they shouldn't start right away with sparring, and (c) their mindset is all wrong. The proper mindset is humility: what can I learn from this class today? What can X teach me today? Even if your partner for that class is a newbie or someone less skilled, that person can always teach you something. That's why having a different partner each night for class is a good idea. The key is open-minded humility.

Entirely agree about sparring. Lots of boxing newbies fall away when they get punched in the face for the first time

I believe "it" is in fighters to varying degrees, both inherently as an instinct, and developed with training and experience as an attribute.
Great post and responses.

Thanks Aussie.

It's something that's been on my mind a while.

There is a mindset. I get told "I'm too polite" in a fight. I once apologised to an opponent for making them tap.

From my own experience of being in matches, and watching them. I think it is in wrestling, the ability and confidence to get into another guys space and take control of it.

Physicality and skill are an important part of that but it is that confidence, confidence and confidence even if they are only faking it.

You can learn the skills, you can learn the moves and you can mould your body- I'm hoping you can learn the mindset too - or I'm forever doomed lol

I so know what you mean Heph. I do that when I pinch people, although through the mouth guard it probably sounds like pththpth...

Good to see some great reading and early responses here , I thought too of controlled aggression , some filters with nurture. I think its a nature VIA nurture struggle with the random genes we inherit , individuality is the magic of the mix in wrestling , music or life . I have skimmed this will come back to it , but I was given also the thought about 'EQ' in wrestling, sports, music, writing, art, education or the sciences ; is there a 'wisdom' or innate fighting gene or importantly an Emotional Intelligence (EQ) quotient ?
Keep up the creative thinking , its rare !

Thanks Scotti. It has to be ultimately rational; the ability to process sensory inputs and extrapolate in certain ways, at speed. Is that innate?

It is a diversifier in all walks of life but extreme situations like contact sports It comes to the fore.

Body-mind. I think the fight drive has in being here, been honed or trained in some way: 4 Fs . ye fight, take flight, hold as freeze, or escape like ye float. The ANS responses with the combined filter of the mind experience, innateness perhaps has like a natural 'mindfulness' base? Strategize more than the wild card. Play a chess game when you wrestle , grapple or box, size up the other and use the skills ye have. Yes find a talent, a passion or embody or know the archetypes of the fighter, warrior or hero inside.

We have a better understanding of what is intelligence, we actually came up with several kinds or types of it. We have learned that some of the things we call talent are consequences of physiological characteristics, an absolute ear surely has a special construction as well as the brain should be able to decode the waves that reach your probe, in this case the ear, and transform it in information that can be used to express yourself. Besides the listed physical attributes , the sense of balance, the awareness of your body are also things that benefit from physical characteristics but can also, as music, be highly improved with study and practice. I am a spreadsheet musician, can play outside the box, almost no transgression there, in this case my probe, as well as my decider are not good at all. However in other activities I believe I do had some talent when I started, like jiu-jitsu for that matter. I am also able to look at mathematical equations and see the physical phenomena they describe, my decoder in this area might be a good one. However, in both activities I invested a lot of time and work to develop. i believe I can identify, in these two areas, people that might have some of the characteristics developed and so considered talented. I believe we are understanding more about these things and may be able to pinpoint the mysterious X Factor that makes some excel and some not.

Thanks Alec.

I think it is something that makes for fascinating study. I mean, surely one reason we do it is to know ourselves better.

Great post and great discussion. I agree with all that’s been said. The part about EQ and mindfulness particularly resonated. The calm (in the mind), thoughtful, and focused a fighter is the better. I’d also say that once the above things are fairly equal, nothing beats dedication and hard work.

It may sound cliche but the more you want it and the more effort you consistently put into it, the better the results will be for that person… whether in the fighting arts, music, or just life in general.

Good points Hammer.

Maybe talent is subject to a law of diminishing returns relative to hard work.

Definitely - you can out work someone who is inherently more talented than you. Especially when they aren’t putting in the work.

Training is part of every skill in life but ass everything life there is people that have a "spark" or "it" on doing something. Wrestling is not an exception.

I always thought of the initial talent on the mat as being similar the difference between the kids who are drawn to mathematics, art class, and the auto shop. There's something about all three topics that "clicks" in one of the kids and not the others. Each area comes naturally to one and not the others. Can the other two develop the same skills as the one for whom the talent comes naturally? Yes, with time and a lot of hard, dedicated, dogged work, and most of all, an incentive (fun, money, or as often found here on MF, comradeship etc). I have always admired the natural wrestlers and wished I was one of them. I also wish art and auto repair came naturally, but I was blessed (or cursed depending on your point of view) with something more academic. Thus learning to wrestle has been like learning to dance - one step at a time, drilled. It is only in the last few years that "naturalness" in wrestling started to appear (leg movement), mind-muscle connection I believe.

Thanks NJW. Nothing wrong with the academic perspective. It saves us from ignoring evidence.

My opinion is we all have it and like muscle it can be nurtured or ignored. Like all other genetics we are wired differently so will be unique to the fighter and therefore we have to develop uniquely or let it go to waste. My golf lessons come to mind, I really wanted to hit like the pros but couldn’t even connect and all everyone kept saying is stand more naturally. Eventually had few lessons and there was nothing more awkward for an adult of my build to stand the way that I was instructed yet after the knowledge and few practice swings I have started pinging it. Hope that’s not off subject and helps answer your question. Both u and the guys above have given me an interesting read and some much needed motivation to get back in to training
Peace

Thanks Bear. Interesting comments you make there. Training against type seems very sensible to me. If we only train at he things for which we are naturally suited, how do we outgrow our own boundaries or the boundaries that others would like to impose on us?

To me, the term "Fight IQ" mostly explains how a guy understands the mechanics of a fight. When watching UFC with friends who grapple, it is apparent that they understand technique. They know the moves: what is being set up, how to counter and when someone is heading toward trouble. I find that most guys who don't practice any grappling cannot tell the difference between a mount, guard or anything else. Frankly, they don't really know what they're watching.

It's very much like turning the ignition on in your car. A trained mechanic can listen for problems like a faulty belt while the average driver won't what they're hearing.

Boxing has a similar fight IQ. Guys who don't box can't tell a haymaker from a hook. Understanding the difference, which mostly come from practice, is your "Fight IQ."

A lot of boxers get their technique wrong. Anyone motivated to get proper coaching and practice can correct those faults.

But the way a person's mind works inside the ring varies, and I'm not sure that this can be developed beyond a point.

Interesting philosophical question but I do believe in social conditioning and training; once it is determined that someone has a "natural talent" you do have to train it and hone it otherwise the talent and natural aptitude might get wasted.
Also, age plays a factor in my opinion...the natural talent has to start from a young age in order for it to get the best results...many famous and talented artists, musicians and athletes started at a young age and applied vigour to excel.
I'm not saying you can't take up boxing or wrestling at a later stage in life but the desire and interest started at a young age and now with social media many men and women are taking up interests that they only thought of and now discovering like minded folks to gain confidence in pursuing their interests
I know this reads like a sociology essay but that's been my observation over the past 15 years that I have taken up wrestling.

I think those are very valid points. In all fields of endeavour that require such extensive conditioning and emotional/intellectual engagement, formation from youth has to be advantageous.

But there still remains an x factor after all other factors are taken into account. Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher being prime examples of the excellence that comes from hard work versus genius.

One factor I’ve heard friends I know who’ve worked in the “security industry” is the difference between “gym hard” and “work hard” when it comes to muscularity and toughness.
A guy who developed his build through work on building sites or farms was considered more hard and difficult to subdue compared to a “Muscle Mary” or gym bunny merchant.

That has to be right. The gym teaches people to isolate their muscles which means the body works as a series of parts rather than as a whole. The gym Is also sanitised and safe so there is none of the risk that builds inner strength. Great if all a person wants is to look the part or lift the biggest weight, but real fighting requires much more

Yes, I guess you might find that the longer you’re into boxing the more likely you come across those cultured In street fighting from an early age. There’s a ruthless mentality there that the “white collars” may lack.

I doubt that I will encounter them. Clubs are diverse in terms of their clientele. The two that I go to are not for young competing fighter and the coaches regulate carefully to ensure that people are well paired. I am aware of clubs that attract those guys. I have no intention of stepping in the ring with them

But I think you have identified something that is part of tha elusive x factor